| The Tibet Riots: Hu Jintao is the Biggest Loser |
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| Written by Willy Lam | |
| Monday, 17 March 2008 | |
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Strongman’s Olympic glory is already tarnished by the unrest
By Sunday, March 16, more than 10,000 lamas and other Tibetans had staged rallies and demonstrations – and clashed with Chinese police, soldiers and People’s Armed Police (PAP) officers in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) and the nearby provinces of Qinghai, Sichuan and Gansu. The Xinhua News Agency and Hong Kong newspapers have quoted authorities, including the Mayor of Lhasa, Duoci Cizhu and Gansu Governor Xu Shousheng, as saying that things are back to normal in these areas. After mass arrests of alleged ringleaders in Lhasa and other cities, virtual martial law has been imposed on the Tibet capital. While the first wave of the “Free Tibet in the Olympics Year” campaign has apparently subsided, Hu, also the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) General Secretary and commander-in-chief, may have suffered the most devastating blow to his career. First, as Party Secretary in Tibet from 1988 to 1992, Hu is the party’s leading authority on the region. As chairman of the Central Military Commission, Hu signed orders in mid-2007 to move more soldiers into both Tibet and Xinjiang so as to make sure that “splittists” in both autonomous regions would not make trouble for Beijing in the run-up to the Summer Olympics. He also called up members of the 650,000-strong paramilitary People’s Armed Police. These precautionary measures, however, failed to prevent unrest. Moreover, conditions in Xinjiang have remained restive in the wake of an alleged terrorist incident on board an Urumqi-Beijing flight on March 8. As both party and military chief, Hu cannot shirk his responsibility for failing to, in CCP parlance, “nip the forces of instability at the bud.” Much more significant is the fact that since becoming a member of the CCP Politburo Standing Committee – and heir apparent to ex-president Jiang Zemin — in 1992, Hu has elevated dozens of his former underlings in Tibet and neighboring provinces to senior positions. The current party secretaries of Tibet and Xinjiang, respectively Zhang Qingli and Wang Lequan, are longtime Hu protégés. Several fifth- and sixth-generation rising stars whom Hu is grooming for leadership positions also earned their first spurs in Tibet. A notable example is Hu Chunhua, 44, the party secretary of the Communist Youth League, which President Hu headed in the mid-1980s. The younger Hu spent more than 10 years in Tibet and has already been mentioned as a potential successor to newly installed State Vice-President Xi Jinping, who is due to take over the top party post when President Hu retires in 2012. A party source in Beijing who is close to Hu Jintao’s personal think tank said the domino effect set off by the unrest in Lhasa on March 10 could end up hurting the entire Hu Jintao Faction. “A key reason why Hu was picked by Deng Xiaoping in 1992 as a future leader was the ruthless and efficient way in that he put down the riots in Lhasa in March 1989,” the source said. “19 years later, however, commander-in-chief Hu and his protégés have failed to contain the disturbances in spite of the larger troop presence in the autonomous region.” Diplomatic analysts in Beijing say Hu and his Politburo colleagues have been hamstrung by Olympics-related factors in this effort to suppress the “splittist conspirators.” Talking to reporters Monday morning, Tibetan region Governor Qianba Puncog said that police and PAP officers had used “non-lethal weapons” against the rioters. “The police have displayed great restraint, and they are doing everything in accordance with the law.” This was despite reports by overseas offices of the Tibet exiled government that PAP officers had shot dead several Tibetan protestors. It is nonetheless true that it is in the interest of Hu and company to steer clear of large-scale bloodshed so as to avoid a possible boycott of the Olympics by some athletes. In any event, the Chinese supremo’s dream of having a spotless Chinese Olympics go down as part of his legacy has already been shattered. The same can be said for the promotion prospects of members of the Chinese strongman’s “Tibet Faction.” Comments
(65)
Modern Theocractic cliques
written by Bushwhacker , April 16, 2008
True, the Dalai Lama is the God-king who tore up his agreement with China and start the uprising in 1959. His current aim is to instigate riotings in Tibet and force negotiation with China for return to the Serfdom he headed then.
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We have any parallel theocratic head in Osama bin Laden. He is recognised by many Muslim as the Emir. His aim is to employ terrorism to force a return the Jemaat (Muslim community) to the Medieval Islamic state. Should the West also uphold its moral high ground on theocracy and support all these theocratic cliques regardless of which faith they represent. report abuse
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written by Rodrick , April 07, 2008
Dalai Lama is a leader of the "Tibet Exile Goverment". Dalai Lama is a leader of Tibet Budist.
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So Dalai Lama is a joint leader for both politics and religion. This fact only recall me one man: Holyness Ayatollah Ruhollah Mussavi Khomeini. If Tibet goes to independent and be led by Holyness Dalai Lama, then this new goverment is a joint political-religious power, this will recall me: 1. The exile goverment of Afghanistan - Taliban and its supportor - Al Qaeda. 2. Iran Islamic Republic. Do wenstern sides support these Evil of Axis? Free Tibetian from communisium to slavery? This is not a human right topic, but a political topic. It is the benificial conflict between China and western side. So enligten us, we will united tighter, enligten yourself and discover the deep truth. report abuse
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The Media
written by Oversea Tiger , April 04, 2008
I am afraid that very often any nation's national interests overrides the needs of media companies to sell more newspaper and higher ratings.
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If the media wishes to appoint themselves as the fourth estate, then they should behave with more dignity, impartiality and a better understanding of the facts and circumstances rather than engaging in values-laden soundbites and kneejerk sensationalism. Lazy a** journalism serves nobody. report abuse
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written by derek , April 04, 2008
WHY ARE THEY AFRAID OF THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA? something to be afriad of...that's why-
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written by misone , April 02, 2008
guys, what the tibet issue really do us any business?? I don't see any points here, it's just the politician's common stratedge. Who know the tibetans realy want freedom or not? what is freedom??Like IRAQ??? oH,THA'T HELL.
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newsfrombbc
written by newsfrombbc , April 02, 2008
China claims that Tibetan "independence forces" are planning to launch suicide attacks as part of a wider uprising to establish an independent Tibet.
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Public Security Ministry spokesman Wu Heping said these suicide squads "fear neither bloodshed nor sacrifice". Mr Wu did not produce any evidence to back up the claims - but said China would release proof later. The prime minister of the Tibetan government-in-exile, Samdhong Rinpoche, denied China's allegations. Mr Wu claimed the wave of protests that erupted across Tibetan areas recently was part of a "Tibetan People's Uprising Movement" ahead of the Olympic Games. He said police had recently discovered guns, ammunition, knives and explosives in the dormitories of Tibetan monks. 'Violent attacks' Mr Wu's comments mark a dramatic increase in the seriousness of the accusations against Tibetans and, by extension, the Dalai Lama, the head of Tibetan Buddhism. "To our knowledge, the next plan of the Tibetan independence forces is to organise suicide squads to launch violent attacks," he said at a press conference. He went on to say that the recent anti-Chinese demonstrations by Tibetans were part of a well-thought-out plan to split Tibet and China. "Back in 2007 the Tibetan independence forces in the United States plotted this very concept," he told journalists. "They believe it will be their last chance to realise Tibetan independence," he added, referring to the publicity this group could attract ahead of the Olympic Games. Mr Wu said these plotters had consulted with the "Dalai clique". 'Blatant lies' The Dalai Lama has consistently denied organising the unrest, and threatened to resign as the spokesman for the Tibetan government-in-exile if it did not stop. He fled Tibet in 1959 after a failed uprising against Chinese rule. But China says the Dalai Lama's calls for an end to violence are "blatant lies" that are aimed at masking his real intention. In order to fulfil his separatist plans, Chinese police claim the Dalai Lama set up an intelligence network in Tibet to collect and disseminate information. Secret activists used code to talk about sensitive topics, according to Mr Wu, with the Dalai Lama apparently referred to as "uncle". Mr Wu said police have arrested a "key member" of this network who confessed to being involved in separatist activities. They have also confiscated 176 guns, 13,000 rounds of ammunition and more than 3,500kg of explosives, he added. China says 18 civilians and two police officers died in the unrest in Tibetan and neighbouring provinces inhabited by Tibetans that began on 10 March. Tibetan groups outside China put the death toll at up to 140, a figure that includes Tibetans they say were killed by Chinese security forces. All claims about the unrest are difficult to verify because the Chinese government has mostly barred foreign journalists from these sensitive areas. report abuse
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We never slang other coutry.But now we find all the media make fake news to slang us.
written by everemember , April 01, 2008
Tibet has been part of China since 1300's.
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Dalai lama is former slave owner. Most Tibet people live in Tibet peacefully. Many people killed in this riots by these mobs. Evidence shows this riot is organized. We Chinese can speak Chinese and English , a lot of us have been Tibet before. How about you? report abuse
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written by Rodrick , April 01, 2008
PS: By the way, Tibet is a part of China. We don't talk history, we are just talking the international laws, which was wirten by Westerners.
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A "nation's territory" includes 3 parts: people, boundary and international recognize. So all countries who has a official deplomatic relationship with China "recognized" the boundary of "China territory", of course, including Tibet area. You can find whether your country "recognize" this issue or not in the official documents called "Joint Communique". So your thought is totally wrong. Tibetans live in Tibet area, it doesn't means they have right to announce Tibet independence. For example, if you bought a private farm in your country, you and your famlies live there, is it mean you get right to announce this land as "Jiaen Republic"? Obviously the answer is negetive. This is called living right. The land is called private land, not independent land. So are Tibetans. No nation has such "democracy" and "freedom" to let you or them do it. You must know every country has its internal law and police. What these things for, support or suppress the anti-goverment group? Killing murderers is called justice. Killing innocent people is called murderers. I am sure you can distinguish these 2 words. report abuse
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written by Rodrick , April 01, 2008
Jiaen:
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We can read all the stories from both sides, otherwise we can't argue with you in this web site. As a matter of fact, we knew there are Tibetans killed this time, however, do you know the word "deserved"? Yes, American people can face the racial problem of their own, how do you know we only deffense our goverment and do not face our own problem. I believe everyday you can hear a lot of critical words to the goverment. But it doesn't mean we agree using a voilence to overroll it. What is your comment to the people died in Paris, Windsor and LA? Your goverment said they were criminals and deserved. So logically, Some Tibetan is deserved. report abuse
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Shades of Western Colonialism 2
written by smoking dragon , March 29, 2008
This is continued from my previous blog.
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2. The NGOs making all the agitation are from the colonial countries that carved up China 80 years ago. They remember the taste of colonism and what they got from it. The new China is less than 60 years old and pushing forward at a pace that frightens the No:1 of this world. European countries are no match. They can only watch the Chinese tide coming. But what they can do is to sabotage the Chinese, in whatever they do. Why should the Tibetans demonstrate? They are now better off then before. Of course they will have to learn to improve and develop themselves so that they can play their rightful role in their country. Chinese history is plagued by the presence of "running dogs", e.g. Martin Lee and others in Hong Kong. These chaps really believe that life as a colonialised slave is better than to be free. They are given life because the West supports them. Why didn't they start their democracy activities when UK was governing them? Why only demonstrate after Independence? This is a question they can never answer. China will put down the rioters. The fake monks will be shown for what they are. Buddhists all over the world are shocked that monks can believe and practice violence. The truth is; they are not monks. They were planted by the Western colonial powers years ago, waiting to come up to create violence. True buddhist monks don't do that. report abuse
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Shades of Western colonialism
written by smoking dragon , March 29, 2008
There are 2 points I have to make.
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1. Tibet 60 years ago was a theocracy/feudalist country which was so "feudal" and backward you just cannot believe it. Life like we know it in Malaysia, India, Taiwan just did not exist. There was hardly any commerce, no doctors, teachers, shopkeepers, etc,etc. Why? Everything was Buddhism; Buddhism here, there and everywhere. Buddhist priests sit on top of the pile. They have all they need. The head honcho is of course, the Dalai Lama. Did he care about the welfare and human development of his people? Nothing! They prayed from morning to night and nothing changed - more years and years. Up till now, the Tibetans , without the help of the Chinese, would not even be able to do any form commerce, and self development. Tibet was described as one of the worst cases of feudalism on this planet. Now after the WW2, the Americans flush with success saw the roof of the world as an excellent place to gaze upon the rest of Asia and the Middle East. It was a very tempting target. But it was quite inaccessible, only by plane across the Himalayas. They were too slow. The Chinese heard about it and in no time they were in Tibet. The rest is history. But the Tibetans benefitted and also became culture shocked. No longer are they under the yoke of the Dalai Lama. They could improve themselves as they want(relative to the previous administration). For the first time they leave the country and find their way to America and other places, from where they are now making demonstrations. Their fathers and mothers 60 years ago could not even think of it. report abuse
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written by hey , March 28, 2008
all the westerners,just shut up your mouth.
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why all the west media distort china?why so many west people hate china? what did we do wrong? most people that criticize china never have been to china, they just believe the distorted press,such as CNN,BBC,and other so called neutral media. do you westner have the first hand or first seeing of china. you westner do not know the history of china. just log on to CNN,TIMES website,see how they distort the situation of tibet.some media cut part of the real photo of riot as to make it appears as the soilder is cracking down the protester.some media said the first aid car as military car because the do not know chinese character,obviously it is ambulence,and the iliterary west media claimed it is military truck,how ridiculous!and why do not you westner learn some chinese word,if you do not know, why do not you ask someone who know chinese words.ridiculous! despite some west media have apologized,but,but the bad impact could not be erased because the information have spread out. what a so called neutral media! why you always violate the press working ethic as long as it is china issue?why? do not insult yourself. i have ever seen a western little girl raised a posture which "freedom of tibet,anti-china" was written on.how this so young girl know the truth of tibet,a young girl,she did not know the rights and wrongs.it is the impact of media or the impact of other adults.really a pity. i am a chinese, 26 years old,just like other chinese, we love our contry,it is a great nation.we love our motherland which have 5000 years civilization,but a young nation as well.we admit that our contry has a lot of issues,bad issues,such as the social insurance is not fair,unfairness to migrant workers,and less free speech than west,and less press freedom compared with west. but,all the issues can not be solved overnight.it is long-term question.you do not know the history of china, and you do not know how complicated these issues are.but we are always focousing on these issues and we are trying to solve it. just come to china to get your first hand information of china. in china, you may have a lot of privileges if you are a minority people.the minority has priority.you will never know it.such as you may enter in to university more easily if you are minor people.i have ever want to be a minority because if so,i will have a broader access to many kinds fields.you may do not understand it because you are infused by the distorted west media. just use your head to rethink that.if china is a dictator contry,how come we are getting stronger and stronger. if china is a dictator nation,how come we chinese have a better and better life. if china is a dictator nation,how come we could have more and more rights. in a word,if china is a dictator nation,we will never have a rapid GDP growth.you know,politics only serve for economy.if china a contry filled with terror or riot or oppression,how come most of us are more and more satisfied with the the hu jintao goverment,or you think we are all with slavery mind,or only you westner is smart and we are dummy and silly and slavery????you are so conceited and arrogant. use your brain to think. i do not believe in media,because chinese media is manipulated by goverment to some extent,neither west media, because they are always distorted report, use your head to rethink,is there any neutral media,any?no!!!! i only believe my eyes.in person experience. i do not mean to so outraged.only because you west is really going too far with no investigation or on the spot report,just believe your so called middle and no offensive media. now i believe the power of media,no matter how wise you are, you will be affectd by it.just like the germany in world war two,the media control you westners. why you are so easliy infused by others and media?naive!naive!!!!!such a shame. now i know why so many people believed in hiltler in world war two. report abuse
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no bias
written by peter , March 25, 2008
oh,yeah, all the guyes so angry and idiology.
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if you go to china to live for a few years, you may find the truth. do trust media,because there is no objective view, or the goverment. in china, as a matter of fact, han-people is a weak people and minority is strong enough because of the china's goverment policy,which offers minority many previleges. i am a chinese, i really want to get the identity of minority,many other han-people as well. because if so, we could get more access to diffrent fields.such as entering to colleage,minority has a lot of previleges. when you comment on something, you must get first hand information,not just getting from media, especially west media. when you do not have first sight information, just shut up. bear in mind, seeing is the most important thing.do not depend on your imagination to judge something. just note:some west media have apologize the falsified coverage on tibet. note. if you want to discuss with me,send e-mail to This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it report abuse
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written by phil , March 21, 2008
Hi,Jiaen
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I tried to answer to your comments but forget it. I've never compared chinese meidas to western medias. I thought the western medias were very professional and sticked to reporting only facts. but I was disappointed. and when you have a lot of opportunities to talk to people of different countries, esp. african countries, you only find one word to describe western countries and medias: hypocrisy. sometimes, you just are tired of their way of reasoning: they are always teachers, and they are always right. esp. when they say this is a horse but in fact this is a deer(chinese idiom), this makes you angry. also, in most fields, try to be objective and dont compare china to western countries, because this is unfair. it's not ten or twenty years that a dictator can become a democractially elected president. report abuse
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written by phil , March 21, 2008
RESPONSE TO :
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I think you mean "believe everything they read"... If this is what you mean, my comment is at least we are given things to read. I do not side with the Han Chinese or the Tibetans, but at least I have access to both sides of the story. In China the only information that is available is through state-controlled Xinhua (news organizations are only allowed to publish the information that Xinhua releases in times of natural disaster or crisis). The spread of opposing viewpoints is stopped by blocking websites such as Youtube (as China did this week) and shutting down blogs (go to sina blogs and type in Tibet, all you see are blank pages...). So yes, I agree that some Western media has been biased on this issue since the riots started. But what about Chinese media? Till now there have been zero reports that any Tibetans have died at all! ----------------------------------------------------- your comments are perfectly right about chinese medias. That's also I've said that I have been reading only western meidas for nearly six years and, honestly speaking, I refuse to read or watch chinese medias because I don't believe in them in most of cases. But this time is different, because this is the first time I become to realize that western authors are good at making news and using the pictures which have not been taken in Lhasa but they said it's Lhasa. there is an article in www.creaders.com (in chinese)which analyses all these wrong information or intentional misunderstanding. I found most of them by my reading, but some persons go even to analyse them. in all the western medias, they have never written sth. about how chinese ordinary people think about this issue. look, 13 billion is not a small number. they just think they are dead, or brainwashed, or simply don't distinguish them from the chinese gouvernment at all. this is really stupid, like tibetan rioting itself.(I do agree with DALA LAMA) so, reslut: chinese people in western countries are angry.some even talk of possibility to organise a march to contre-protest tibetan protests. and these people are usually anti-chinese gouvernment. DALA LAMA's moderate way probably can win the hearts of a lot of chinese people, but the violent rioting can only help uniting all the chinese, in China and d'outre-mer against the separatists. this is the best chance for CCP to gain the hearts of the people. for tibetan issue, nothing can change even you change the CCP with a democratic (in the sense of western countries). report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 19, 2008
And predictably, the American media are now portraying the Tibetan terrorists as victims oppressed by the Chinese Han. With this vicious attitude do the Americans deserve any sympathy for the 9/11? If Americans encourage, support, and incite terrorism in China, then America would not deserve any sympathy for 9/11. And nobody will feel any sympathy if America got more terrorist attacks. People will only equate 9/11 with Tibet.
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written by Liang1a , March 19, 2008
overseas tiger wrote:
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God, I hate all these jingoistic, emotions-laden, values-driven shrill harangues. ---------------------------------- Anything said by Hitler was automatically evil to the Jews. Similarly, anthing said by the Jews are evil to the Palestinians. And so forth. Nobody is willing to really understand the truth but only justifications for their own bigotry. If you as a Chinese said things that panders to the racist Americans, then they will call you rational. Otherwise, they will call you idiot, chauvinist, dangerous, and label all you said as rants, tirades, etc. In the end, it does nothing constructive to get into a spitting match with morons who know nothing about the reality. However, it is necessary to post on these articles. First to rally the Chinese so that they don't get discouraged and think all the world is against China when in fact there are many people who support China. Second, to let those that make American policies know that their propaganda are not working and fooling any intelligent people in the world. As to the idiots at this forum they're nothing more than pawns in a bigger game. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 19, 2008
Jiaen wrote:
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I think you have just pointed out a key difference - most Americans I know are not terribly offended when something negative is said about their country. ---------------------- This is a sanctimonious and false harangue. This is absolutely untrue. Just try to tell stupid red necks that America is wrong to mistreat its blacks, you'd get yourself lynched. Don't lie to me because I've lived in America probably longer than you've been alive. Why do you think most of the blacks are still complaining about discrimination even today? It is politically correct to condemn racism in the US but nobody want to do anything about it. Even Obama has to pick his way very carefully around this issue and not condemn outright all the discrimination in America today. The truth is much closer to what his preacher said. And guess what happened to his preacher? He got fired. (Presumably he was going to retire anyway. That's convenient.) Furthermore, I've always condemned CCP shortcomings. There are also increasing criticism of corruption in China. And in most cases the CCP is moving to address these problems. Actually, I've called for the implementation of democracy in China. To some extent democracy is being implemented. Unfortunately, terrorist acts such as that in Tibet will set back the progress toward democracy. You can go to the following link to read some thoughts of the CCP on democracy: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90780/91342/6351312.html report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 19, 2008
Mike Styes wrote:
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When I see you say the war in Iraq was for oil, it proves to me you views, etc. If it was about oil, would the US had said give it to us to pay for the war and rebuilding of infrastructure. -------------------- This post is so delusionary, it is hardly worth responding other than to highlight its stupidity. Even most of the Americans have admitted that the Iraq war is for oil. Why do you think Cheney was so eager to attack Iraq? It is to do his oil company cronies a favor. Therefore, it was demonstrated that Cheney wanted to attack Iraq no matter whether there were WMD or not. All these have been well documented by American media. Go and do your own reading before coming to this international forum and make an idiot of yourself. report abuse
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The hard Part III
written by Overseas Tiger , March 19, 2008
That is until Western ‘modernity’ and the associated idea of statehood forcibly imposed itself into Asia at the turn of the century and China saw itself invaded from all sides that she saw/felt the need to again react/over-react/reassert its borders and sovereignty. In Tibet this was first against Gurkha Nepal, then Imperial Britain in the Great Game (this was after the Opium War), then against an infantile, amateurish and half-assed boys-own adventure CIA sponsored operation/plot (go search YouTube for the documentary) together with the dispossessed Tibetan aristocracy that foreshadowed the Bay of Pigs and also later against perceived Indian aggression.
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Frankly it was the CIA operation, the Dalai Lama’s brother’s participation and the DL’s subsequent escape in the same operation which caused the greatest damage and led the Communist Chinese leadership until today to suspect that the DL remain a foreign pawn and did once received or continue to receive CIA/foreign funding, which the DL never sought to repudiate. And we all know how much people around the world just so loooved the CIA. Consequently, from this perspective I believe that Tibetan independence is unrealistic and unlikely in the medium term, because if China was forced to choose between Tibet and the Olympics, the Tibetans will not like the outcome, especially as it is all governments’ policy to never be coerced into any decisions. Whereas ‘meaningful’ autonomy may likely be possible in the future, perhaps under a federal and democratic China, of which there are already government sponsored grassroot experimentation. It is therefore Tibet’s misfortune that she became a historical pawn to the ‘Great’ powers, it is the Tibetan people’s tragedy that to gain independence/greater cultural freedom/autonomy they have to prostitute their cause to the transitory whims of western media, its chattering classes and western government interests. And it is China’s dilemma to resolve if it is to achieve ‘modernity’, even if it is her version of modernity and in her own eyes. report abuse
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The Hard part II
written by Overseas Tiger , March 19, 2008
At the nascent of the Tang dynasty and weak from civil wars, the Tang dynasty in re-establishing its borders which encompasses that of the other conquered Chinese kingdoms after the collapse and fracturing of the previous dynasty, mark the first recorded contact with the Tibetan Kingdom/Empire. This led to many subsequent raids and invasions by nomadic (synonymous with barbaric to the Han Chinese at the time) Tibetans into the predominantly agrarian Han Chinese heartland, thus setting off reciprocal Han reprisals as well as many later diplomatic royal marriages to cement transitory peace treaties and military alliances with and against each other and other neighbouring kingdoms/empires.
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Thus, many times, in Tibet’s own history various Tibetan factions sought Han, Mongol and Manchurian support against each other as well as against invading neighbours. The net effect over time is increasing Chinese involvement/intervention in Tibetan affairs by China to secure the trade routes (incl. The Silk Road), to secure its borders and to have peace on its periphery. A modern analogy, for better or worse, is perhaps the US’ argument of war in Iraq to keep terrorism away from the American Homeland. Because of such ‘national security’ concerns the historical Chinese imperial tradition evolved into a system ranging from tributary states to imperial Chinese suzerainty (look it up, its very similar to the client states system during the Cold War), in that for pragmatic reasons local rulers continue to rule until they needed Chinese help/intervention. Consequently and historically, the vast majority of the uneducated Tibetan nomads and peasants would have been unaware of such arrangements between the Tibetan kings/emperors/nobility/Dalai Lamas and the various Chinese dynasties over the centuries and would have continue to consider themselves ‘independent’, provided they cared or survived the day to day hardship of the Tibetan theocracy. report abuse
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The Hard Part I
written by Overseas Tiger , March 19, 2008
I have seen it bandied about that Tibet prior to Communist ‘liberation’ was for long periods of time independent, consequently making it convenient in a black/white kind of way for many in the west to instantly consider China, especially giant, threatening, mass horde ‘Communist’ China the instant cereal box ready made bad guy, perfect for the lazy Sunday matinee. However, this fails to consider the exact nature of that independence and the far more complex historical interaction between these two societies than many suspect or are ready to accept.
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The historical attitude/policy of dynastic imperial China was to maintain peace by hook or by crook at its periphery so that stability/prosperity is maintained within the (Han) Chinese heartland, being the central flood plains around the Yellow and the Yangtse Rivers, which the Han called zhong yuen, ie central plains/origin (hence modern day Zhong Guo, literally Central Nation or China, which when Western Orientalism/romanticism meets Chinese Imperial traditions/foreign policy became the ‘Middle Kingdom’ and thus another symbol of Chinese (Han) egocentric arrogance/chauvinism). Thus historically, irrespective of the name of the dynasty the Han Chinese have typically referred to their country/place of origin as Zhong Yuen, especially when assailed by foreign aggression, whether nomadic or seaborne, thereby setting the foundation of nation/statehood, culminating in the idea of modern day Zhong Guo (China) when the republic was established. report abuse
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How we got here
written by Overseas Tiger , March 19, 2008
God, I hate all these jingoistic, emotions-laden, values-driven shrill harangues. Like the violence of the Chinese Tibetans, it serves nobody, least of all the fundamental understanding of the issue and we’ll all come out as losers, but especially the lot of Tibetans in China.
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Too often, in the West I have come across people approaching issues of less developed/developing/native cultures through a painful mishmash of romantic/nostalgic sense of loss/regret/pinning/hope of regaining innocence/paradise/Eden/Shangri-La because of their own Judaeo/Christian traditions/values/beliefs and the rooting for the ‘underdog’ without seriously considering the complexities of the issue, which of course would be too much like hard work. Unfortunately China in reaching for ‘modernity’ is itself becoming no different at the moment because of the current state of fast pace, instant gratification, instantly forgettable aspect of global(isation) consumerism. (Somebody call an anthropologist) report abuse
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Thibet will be free
written by Mike , March 19, 2008
It is just a matter of When.
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The Hu Jintao of this world and their counter productive methods are finished: we get to know too fast what is happening any where.The Chinese have poured Yen in Thibet BUT not for the Thibetains just for themselves...they have ripped the people of their skilles their knowlegde their Medical schools and certainly have not done anything for the Monasteries. report abuse
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Jiaen
written by Jiaen , March 19, 2008
Wow... : Arthur Borges : http://arthur.translatorscafe.com
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I'm not a regular contributor here but, with the exception of Overseas Tiger, the general level of discussion is simply saddening. ------------------------------------------ So contribute. Enlighten us. report abuse
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A cliche, but useful at times
written by Overseas Tiger , March 19, 2008
Desiderata
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Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952 report abuse
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Wow...
written by Arthur Borges , March 19, 2008
I'm not a regular contributor here but, with the exception of Overseas Tiger, the general level of discussion is simply saddening.
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written by Lowtze , March 19, 2008
Oh jeez, I despair of the idiotic people, who happen unfortunately to identify themselves as Chinese, writing on this site. You are unworthy of being allowed comment. If China every gets democracy god save us from these people ever having a say in the running of the country; fortunately for all of us, there are educated, rational and humanitarian Chinese, just as there are stupid caucasians who hold different, but equally risible opinions. But a country that can still revere a fat, mad murderer illustrates a not altogether confidence in it's future, perhaps we are lucky and the Chinese per se are not actually ready for democracy and it's the CCP that are saving us from their hanocentric unreconstructed ignorant barbarism
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Western Evils
written by Western Educated Chinese , March 19, 2008
I, as an overseas educated Chinese, just can't wait any longer but longing for another war with US/Britain, after watching what they had done & continue to wreck all these evils upon the weaker peoples of the world. The west is now considered all full of s**ts even though I initially very much appreciated their generosity while studying, working & enjoying their tax-payers' benefits as guest in their country. For all we know, the biggest genocide in human history is now happening in Gaza, where the poor Palestinians are subjected to the most horrific humiliation & barbaric slaughter perpetrated by this evil little race,the Jews, & their mischievous terrorist state, Israel, abetted & armed to the teeth by this mother of all satans, the US & its cronies, UK, Australia, Canada & some EU states. Chinese, while no apologist & admirer of the Muslim Arabs, must help push this world endeavour/enterprise to decimate Israel & US for the world's sake! Hence, talk of Han genocide is really a silly diversion & chicken feed compared their evil doings.
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Jiaen
written by Jiaen , March 19, 2008
... : phil
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read all the news and you will find that nothing is mentionned who killed the innocent people and who destroyed totally the muslim district in Tibet. and the authors like linking Tibetain rioting to 1989 Tiananmen. these people even dont understand China but write anything they believe. --------------------------------------------- I think you mean "believe everything they read"... If this is what you mean, my comment is at least we are given things to read. I do not side with the Han Chinese or the Tibetans, but at least I have access to both sides of the story. In China the only information that is available is through state-controlled Xinhua (news organizations are only allowed to publish the information that Xinhua releases in times of natural disaster or crisis). The spread of opposing viewpoints is stopped by blocking websites such as Youtube (as China did this week) and shutting down blogs (go to sina blogs and type in Tibet, all you see are blank pages...). So yes, I agree that some Western media has been biased on this issue since the riots started. But what about Chinese media? Till now there have been zero reports that any Tibetans have died at all! report abuse
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written by phil , March 19, 2008
read all the news and you will find that nothing is mentionned who killed the innocent people and who destroyed totally the muslim district in Tibet.
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and the authors like linking Tibetain rioting to 1989 Tiananmen. these people even dont understand China but write anything they believe. report abuse
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written by phil , March 19, 2008
just like chinese students who are tired of their obligatory course about Deng xiaoping's theory, any westerner naturally think that china is not democratic and can anything bad to tibetains.
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I really think the chinese gouvernment is stupid, why they put a lot of money to build and maintain the tibetain monasteries and try to develop tibet. shops, railroads,schools,public facilities, surely, influence and change the tibetain culture. this is just the normal thing of the nature and economical developpement.(think all the other western countries: americain and australien indians; they even took children to put them in the white's family. or see their religion. u cannot find a single island or country where there is no christian church.)if people talk of culture genocide, i think the first enemy should be americain culture.(film, music, mode of living...) report abuse
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Jiaen
written by Jiaen , March 19, 2008
Liang1a: But a relevant point is that his speech may have offended many white men who resented his open statements that race is a problem in America. It would affirm what his wife said about being proud of America only now but not before. No doubt the white bigots at this forum will now call Obama an angry irrational man who are shouting tirades.
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---------------------------------------------------- I think you have just pointed out a key difference - most Americans I know are not terribly offended when something negative is said about their country. I am not going to stop supporting Obama because he says America has a problem with racism, or his wife says America has had a history of racism. These are undeniable facts and just because I may be American, does not mean I am going to deny them or get angry because someone has stated what is a reality. Whereas based on my own experiences in China, plus your rants on this board, it seems Chinese people DO in fact take offence from and often deny negative things said about China. I believe that this is the irrational nationalism mentioned in other posts below. report abuse
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written by phil , March 19, 2008
For several days, I've been reading all the news about Tibet rioting and I read only western media and press. I shun the chinese press intentionally for fear of faulse information. but now i'm tired of all these western media.
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I've been reading only western press for nearly six years. i find one intresting thing: all the things done by chinese government are wrong and any western country has right to scold China. report abuse
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written by Mike Styes , March 19, 2008
Liang1As,
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I try to hold my tongue, but I cannot any longer. I didn't continue to read the rest of your rants, so I don't know (or care) if anyone else addressed them. When I see you say the war in Iraq was for oil, it proves to me you views, etc. If it was about oil, would the US had said give it to us to pay for the war and rebuilding of infrastructure. What happened? China signed huge contracts on the free market, and China benefited more than anyone from the Iraq war. So, since you are 'misguided' on your opinions, in this light I cannot accept any of your other opinions. Living in China and talking to many people, I see the common trend of the Hans are that they think they are destined to be everything to everyone, and are jealous and hostile to anyone who doesn't see their revisionist Han world view. China education is rote memorization, but not enough critical thinking. You may have attended schools abroad, but your anger and your viewpoints show that while you had an education, it wasn't these schools that shaped you view on life. The Han people can't understand Tibetans, because they see it all in the context of a religion, while most Han view the party as their religion. I hope you get help you seem to need, as your anger and resentment will only lead to an unhappy life and early death. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Those Americans who want to pretend that America is a perfect paradise should listen to what Obama had just said about race in America. Obviously, America is not a paradise for the blacks and other minorities. But a relevant point is that his speech may have offended many white men who resented his open statements that race is a problem in America. It would affirm what his wife said about being proud of America only now but not before. No doubt the white bigots at this forum will now call Obama an angry irrational man who are shouting tirades.
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
There is no point in fighting Vietman war over again. America got kicked out and China taught the Vietnamese a lesson. Time has moved on. There are more relevant subjects to talk about such as the resurgence of China through technological advancement and the urbanization of the farmers.
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To see my 12-Guidelines for China's rapid advancement, please go to the following link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=371672&messageid=1105667957&lp=1105667957 report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
It seems any Chinese who expressed a desire to see China strong and Chinese prosperous is automatically branded an angry irratinal and dangerous super-nationalist spouting tirades. This only shows the blind arrogance of Americans and Westerns who believe that their superiority will last forever. And anybody who even hint that they could be powerful are automatically chauvinists. The truth is the West had only risen in the last couple of hundred years while China had been the most advanced country for thousands of years. And the power and wealth of any nation depends on the advancement of its technologies. China has the potential to become the most powerful and wealthies nation on earth because it has the most number of genius level people who can be educated and trained to become the biggest pool of world class scientists and engineers to invent the most advanced technologies to make the Chinese people the most productive and hence the richest in the world. Take this as an angry tirade if you want to delude yourself. But this is the truth. The West has become the most powerful by default because China had collapsed over the last several hundred years. But China is now rising in spite of the CCP's incompetence. If Mao had been more competent at nation building, China's GDP would be at least $50 trillion and 4 times bigger than America's. And Chinese astronauts would be setting up base not on moon but on Mars.
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To read more about why America is so strong and why China can overtake it, please go to the following link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=238054&messageid=1120126434&lp=1120126434 report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Tiger wrote:
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This is componded when the newcomers establish tourism businesses that are associated or depends on traditional Tibetan cultural icons while Tibetans view them as religious and culturally sacred, thus contributing to the perception of 'cultural genocide'. ---------------------- I don't agree with this. If the Tibetans are angry at all they're more likely to be angry because they've been left out in the tourism business. Probably all the shops are owned by Han while the Tibetans can't own shops along the main tourist shopping streets. This is why they burned the Chinese shops. Of course, they've been incited anc orchestrated by the outside religious organizations such as Dalai Lama's clique and saboteurs such as CIA. This is why these acts are terrorist acts and not just a riot. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Lowtze wrote:
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Of course the west has been guilty and America more than most, but there is an opposition to the dominant ideaology in the West however impotent it is, think Chomsky, Pilger, Monbiot et al. There is no opposition voice in China therefore you cannot find a truth as you only have one side of the equation. This unbalance has led you to believe some of the propaganda you've been spoon fed. ----------------------- If you want to know what I really feel about political philosophy, then go to the links given below. I'm for democracy, though not the God based democracy of America. ------------------------------- http://www.network54.com/Forum/238054/thread/1171220680/last-1171220680/Democracy - cure for Chinaos corruption problem. http://www.network54.com/Forum/238054/thread/1171931970/last-1171931970/Dictatorship inevitably breeds corruption. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Ireme Puah wrote:
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My God. Are there any schools that teach anything else outside of Maoist, communist, Marxist and Han-revisionist ideology in China? Reading Liang1a's diatribes I seriously worry about the average (Mainland) Chinese's level of education and capability of critical thought. ---------------------- Who told you I received a mainland China education? I went to primary and secondary schools in Japan at a school for foreigners attended mainly by Americans and Canadians. Then I went to UC Berkeley where I received a MS in electrical engineering and computer science. (I can see you say now, "Of course, UC Berkeley. No wonder.") So everybody who pointed out the shortcomings of America and the West is automatically an ignorant Chinese doing tirades. What is more truthful is that those sanctimonious Americans and Westerners who denigrate Chinese are doing nothing more than supercilious harangues that shows no real knowledge of the reality. Most of these morons don't even know where China is on the map. They just been brainwashed by hundreds of years of portraying the Chinese as evil "Chinamen" out to subvert the godly Americans. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Lowtze wrote:
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Liang1a, Don't be so angry, try to find some objectivity. Your tirade does nothing but confirm to your readers that you only have some small awareness of truths and have been manipulated by the culture that you were immersed in from a young age. ------------------------------------ I grew up with white WASPs and worked with them all my life. I think I know a few things about the WASPs. Their good points as well as their bad points. Is it false for Michelle Obama to say that she was only now proud of America? Maybe she wasn't so proud of America for mistreating the blacks and other minorities? Maybe she wasn't so proud of America for the unjust war in Vietnam? Maybe she wassn't so proud when America attacked Iraq to rob it of its oil on the think pretext of bringing democracy and destroying WMD? How proud do you think most of the blacks are of America? I'm not angry. I'm actually rather fond of America and the WASPs. If I were to have a master, I'd choose the WASPs any day. But I'd rather not have a master. And I'd like the WASPs to stop acting like they're masters of the world. It ill becomes one to act like a master when it can no longer enforce its simplest desire on others. More and more south Americans countries are rejecting America. As well in all other parts of the world. So stop acting like your words are the final judgement and start looking inside yourself. Your condescension only make you look silly. Like a chimpanzee lecturing an 800 pound gorilla. report abuse
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Peace!
written by Alessio in Asia , March 18, 2008
Give peace a chance!!!
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Boycott Peking 2008!!! Peace! Freedom! Non-violence! Love! report abuse
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A bug up my Ass
written by Overseas Tiger , March 18, 2008
Lowtze, Liang1a et al, the Chinese have a saying that 'winning and loosing are everyday occurences for the strategist', in other words, there is no need to commit hara kiri just because you loose a battle or a war, for 'so long as you remain in the mountain (forest) don't be afraid that you will run out of wood for fuel; ie so long as you live there are always future opportunities.
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As regarding Vietnam/Cambodia, it is as with many things a matter of perception and perspective. For example, Americans call their war in Vietnam, the Vietnam War, whereas the Vietnamese, who at various times in modern history fought the Chinese, the French, the Japanese, then the French again, calls it the 'American War'. In the US many believed that America 'withdrew' from Vietnam rather than were defeated there because the US never officially declared war, irrespective of its large military commitment at the time. The Vietnamese have a historical love-hate relationship towards the Chinese despite that they willingly adopted many aspects of Chinese culture over the centuries. Just as Ho Chi-Minh were happy to receive Chinese(and Russian) aid during the 'American War', he had no desire to let China re-occupy Vietnam or become a tributory state to China. Their relationship was very much akin to that of America's vis-a-vis Britain, ie. happy to adopt Anglo-Saxon culture etc., but 'no taxation without representation'. As to China invading Vietnam over Cambodia, China's perspective and stated objective was a shot across the bow to warn Vietnam of the greater consequences and to force her to withdraw from Cambodia which it subsequently achieved. China regarded Cambodia as her client state during the Cold War, just as the US through the Schools of the Americas (now renamed The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation because of extremely bad publicity) sought to do achieve in Latin America and with Israel in the Middle East. Vietnam at the time were fully aware that China will commit even more troops irrespective of loss to achieve this objective as she did during the Korean War, if Vietnam did not withdraw, as Vietnam in counterpoint to China was becoming a Russian client state. From this perspective, China achieved its aim and 'won' the 'limited war' it set out to undertake, just as the Western allies can be said to have 'won' the first Iraq War in forcing Iraq out of Kuwait without going on to occupy Iraq, precisely because of the fear of a repeat of Vietnam. Consequently, rather than "look we lost the Vietnam War, but see China didn't do any better than us either in Vietnam, so that's OK" just to soothe our ego in an infantile chest-thumping, pissing contest, the world just might become a better place if people read/see more from different perspectives other than that which we are most comfortable with or best conform to our 'Weltanshaung'. More reading is good, but more thinking, more understanding and more wisdom is even better, for God and the Devil is in the details. report abuse
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written by Lowtze , March 18, 2008
Many thanks to overseas chinese, for his balanced, nuanced comments.
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I don't agree with everything you say but applaud your ability to say it and as ever defend your right to your opinon. I'm afraid I couldn't say the same for Liang, mere pity! report abuse
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Re:Concern about Liang1a : Irene Puah
written by a guest , March 18, 2008
Actually...... we don't care the Maoist, communist, Marxist and Han-revisionist ideology when we in school. even the teachers who were force by the education requirement to teach thoes! even our teachers, our prfessors, just ask us, to find out the logical relationship in thoes theory, of find out the histroy that why they say so. just it
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written by Overseas Tiger , March 18, 2008
Actually, having discussed/debated with Chinese social scientists, government officials and attended their discussion groups, there are intellectual and ideological opposition to any officially adopted policies within China, except that they are debated WITHIN the establishment as the governmnet considers social/political stability the utmost priority as the whole of China, including Tibet (whether the Tibetans and all Chinese irrespective of ethnicity like it or not), undergoes social re-engineering towards 'modernity'. A good introductory article on this can be found in the latest edition of the Prospect magazine.
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The Chinese government line, much like the Singaporean government's, is that you can debate policies and ideologies etc., but you must do it within the party or at least within the existing political structure. This is to prevent half-baked and ill-thought through ideas from destablising society in this time of change within China or to prevent any single group from hijacking ideas to further their own politica ends (ie Mao's cultural revolution). Unfortunately the Chinese leadership, majority of whom are engineers rather than lawyers or doctors as in the west, failed to buid in 'flexible' safety valves in their social re-engineering plans to account for the bulit-up of social pressure and stress during social/economic transition. The suggestion that the Chinese government is actively moving large Han population into Tibet is also a fallacy. As with the rest of China, they ARE encouraging Tibet's development which in any society historically means urbanisation and increased population dislocation as is currently happening all over China and not just in Tibet. People, irrespective of race, creed or nationality go wherever there are jobs and opportunities and this inevitably leads to social and personal dislocation. Having been to Tibet, urban Chinese Tibetans are extremely dissatisfied because they see China's economic development and her creation of a market economy as having largely passed them by and benefitting mainly outsiders, namely the Han Chinese from the east and the Muslim Hui Chinese from the north west. Chinese Tibetans' failure to partake of China's modernisation lies in various economic, cultural, social and political factors within the traditionally agarian Chinese Tibetan community as well as in the failure of Chinese government's development policies and its lack of nuance towards Tibet and China's own ecological environment. This is componded when the newcomers establish tourism businesses that are associated or depends on traditional Tibetan cultural icons while Tibetans view them as religious and culturally sacred, thus contributing to the perception of 'cultural genocide'. Then it becomes a case not only of 'what would Jesus buy?' or what 'would Jesus drive?', but also of development on whose terms. Culture is not in itself immutable nor static however much we wish it to be for the sake of security and assurances in our own sense of identity. The dilemma is then of policy choices, ranging from affirmitive actions, and its associated question of fairness, in benefit of Chinese Tibetans, to mayhaps the setting up of a Tibetan 'reservation', akin to that for the Native Americans, thereby retarding their rightful participation in modernity even more. Or perhaps outright independence, which I believe would be unviable nor tenable for various economic, social, geopolitical and percieved Chinese national security reasons. report abuse
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Concern about Liang1a
written by Irene Puah , March 18, 2008
My God. Are there any schools that teach anything else outside of Maoist, communist, Marxist and Han-revisionist ideology in China? Reading Liang1a's diatribes I seriously worry about the average (Mainland) Chinese's level of education and capability of critical thought.
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written by ... , March 18, 2008
Less than 0.01% of the Chinese population know anything about their own history. Therefore, any patriotism is based purely on myth. And yes, China has invaded Burma, Vietnam, and it has meddled in Korea all the way up to the Korean War.
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Unfortunately, China is a wasteland, spiritually, environmentally, socially, culturally. Wastelands produce hollow, void people, who turn to nationalism because their lives are pathetic and worthless. Even mandarin is a bastardized form of its original version, which will never become a global language. China could never be a world power as it has no real culture to export, and certainly nothing that is of high quality. Is it any wonder that no one trusts China, whether in the developed or developing world? If anyone can prove this point wrong, or at least suggest why one should trust China, it would be interesting to hear. I think China should forfeit the Olympic games. That way, China can claim that it shunned the world and stood up for its own moral beliefs in the face of western oppression, while the West can be content in believing it achieved its own moral goals. Meanwhile, athletes would not be putting their health at risk and less civilians would be exposed to terrorist attacks. report abuse
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written by Lowtze , March 18, 2008
Liang1a, Don't be so angry, try to find some objectivity. Your tirade does nothing but confirm to your readers that you only have some small awareness of truths and have been manipulated by the culture that you were immersed in from a young age. Of course the west has been guilty and America more than most, but there is an opposition to the dominant ideaology in the West however impotent it is, think Chomsky, Pilger, Monbiot et al. There is no opposition voice in China therefore you cannot find a truth as you only have one side of the equation. This unbalance has led you to believe some of the propaganda you've been spoon fed. Interesting word as well; sophistry, are all anglo-saxons sophists? Are all Chinese inscrutable? And China only brings presents, I wonder how the Vietnamese liked their presents in 1979 when the PRC invaded. Why did they invade Vietnam? I doubt you'll know but it was because Vietnam invaded Cambodia, whose Kymer Rouge government was backed by the PRC, Oh and 2 or 3 million Cambodians died courtesy of that backing. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing sir and you have little or none which is not your fault.
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PS, CHina lost and had to retreat within a month. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Lowtze wrote:
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That there is a racial characteristic to Chinese Bombast is self-evident, ... ----------------------- That a prominent trait of the Anglo-Saxons is self-justifying sophistry is well known. Everything Anglo-Americans do is straight from God. And everybody who contradict them are evil fit to be destroyed. This might have been terrifying when America was invincible. But it is just pathetic now that it is no longer invincible. It has bogged down in Iraq. It cannot even manage its own economy without help from China. So the Americans should take a closer look at its own self-justification and stop being so smug and sanctimonious. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Lowtze wrote:
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We should worry not just about the Tibetans and the Chinese, we should worry for all of us, the militaristic bombast that emanates from some quarters in China is eerily reminiscent of Japan circa 1930. ------------------- When all is said and done, the Chinese didn't invade any country in the world since the beginning of its long history to rob and plunder. The Chinese only expanded its influence through impressing its neighbors by its glorious culture. When the Chinese went out exploring, it sent out ships loaded with treasures looking for friends to give the treasures to. It is the Europeans who sent out ships loaded with guns and cannons looking for victims to rob and plunder. So who should be afraid of whom? report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Lowtze wrote:
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Whose fault is it? Oh yeah, the Western running dogs, just a Hitler sought to bind a nation together through jew baiting, so China enters the fray with false memory syndrome. No mention of the fact that China's problems are a result of a century and a half of internal problems that led to millions of deaths at the hands of fellow Chinese. Look to your own culture for your problems China, define 'face' for what it really is and perhaps you'll free yourselves from your fetters. ------------------------- This would be a lot more credible if the Americans didn't enslave the blacks, excluded the Chinese from America, and exterminated the native Americans. Or China weren't invaded by the Europeans and Japan since early 1800's which caused tens of millions of deaths. And as much as some neocons want the Americans to believe that the American soldiers are in Iraq to bring democracy to the Iraqis, even the moderately intelligent Americans don't believe in that hogwash. Everybody else in the world know that the Americans are in Iraq to steal the Iraqi oil. And we're suppose to follow the Americans as a shinign beacon in the "hellish darkness" of Chinese history? I could laugh if it isn't so offensive. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
respond Michael1 wrote:
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Han chauvinism (we call it nationalism, patriotism), if any at all, is definitely a lesser evil compared to white racism, Anglo-Saxon racial genocides ( of North American Indians, Black Africans, Maoris & Australian aborigines). --------------------------- This is a good point. There were millions of native Americans in America when the whites first arrived. Now there is hardly any full-blooded native Americans left. Once an apparently white man told me that he's an Indian. I just couldn't see any Indian trait in him. In contrast there are some 2.4 million Tibetans in Tibet and some 5 million Tibetans in all parts of China. The population of the Tibetans have actually increased since the last 60 years. And while the Chinese Han are subject to one-child per family law, the Tibetans are exempt. The Tibetans can study the Tibetan language in schools as well as use Tibetan language in court. There is no such equivalent in America. And there is no restriction on practising the Tibetan culture as long as it is consistent with the law. And the law only prevent the ordinary Tibetans from being mistreated by other Tibetans. report abuse
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written by Lowtze , March 18, 2008
How excruciating to read some of the comments above. We should feel only pity for all of the Chinese people who are denied the opportunity to find their own truth about their own country. But we should feel fear as well, the irrational views expressed by many chinese are a direct result of the 'old men'; controlling information to indoctrinate the millions and unleashing a very dangerous nationalism.
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We should worry not just about the Tibetans and the Chinese, we should worry for all of us, the militaristic bombast that emanates from some quarters in China is eerily reminiscent of Japan circa 1930. That there is a racial characteristic to Chinese Bombast is self-evident, that crude racism exists throughout China is a direct result of decades of policy decisions by pathetic old men seeking to retain an Iron grip on power through demonization and by propagating a culture of victimhood. Whose fault is it? Oh yeah, the Western running dogs, just a Hitler sought to bind a nation together through jew baiting, so China enters the fray with false memory syndrome. No mention of the fact that China's problems are a result of a century and a half of internal problems that led to millions of deaths at the hands of fellow Chinese. Look to your own culture for your problems China, define 'face' for what it really is and perhaps you'll free yourselves from your fetters. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
http:// wrote:
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Sorry to read again about the Hans' misconceptions. Economic growth and 'raise the standard of living' is not enough. That's not what the Tibetans long for. They want to preserve their culture and make sure Tibetan culture survive for future generations. It does not mean independence, but more autonomy and understanding of and respect for their values. ---------------------------- This is nonsense. The Tibetans are mostly ignorant nomads who knows nothing but the superstitions they were brainwashed in growing up. They just don't know better. They know nothing about science and ethics or even the most elementary logics. All they know is the superstitions. It would be criminal for any government to let its people to remain in such backward primitive nonsense. It is about time for the Chinese government to rid them of this superstitious nonsense and bring them into the 21st century to understand what the real world is based on science and biology. That the Tibetans want to stay in poverty and superstitions is nothing more than the misconception of the West who superpose their own preconceptions onto the Tibetans. It is just like Margaret Mead superposing here own preconceptions onto the Samoa culture. Again, it is simply nonsense that the Tibetans don't care about higher incomes and better living conditions but only want to preserve their primitive way of serving some uncaring Lama who mistreated them cruelly as slaves who can killed them without any compunction. Anybody who says the Tibetans want the old feudal lives just don't know what they're talking about. It would have been more credible if they say the Tibetans want higher incomes and better living conditions. report abuse
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true justice
written by respond michael1 , March 18, 2008
Yeah, we will reflect, or even better, quit XiZang for that matter if you first get the hell out of Australia, New Zealand, North America. Han chauvinism (we call it nationalism, patriotism), if any at all, is definitely a lesser evil compared to white racism, Anglo-Saxon racial genocides ( of North American Indians, Black Africans, Maoris & Australian aborigines). What an utter hypocrisy, after the episopdes of whole sale slaughter, enslavement & displacement of indigenous populations world wide, then come around & just say "we are sorry" (like what they did recently in Australia) but still keeping the loots & spoilts. Apology can only carry weight/sincerity by giving the victims back all their ancestral lands by shipping back (white settlers)to their original Europe.
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asia based european
written by ... , March 18, 2008
Liang wrote:
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And the one-dimensional view is entirely in the eye of the West who cannot seem to understand that the Chinese government has been trying to raise the standard of living of the Western Region, including Tibet. Sorry to read again about the Hans' misconceptions. Economic growth and 'raise the standard of living' is not enough. That's not what the Tibetans long for. They want to preserve their culture and make sure Tibetan culture survive for future generations. It does not mean independence, but more autonomy and understanding of and respect for their values. And the reason why the Tibetans committed the terrorist acts is because they were instigated by the Westerners. Not true at all. I've been to Tibet and talked to the local population - and almost all were resentful of the way they are treated by the Chinese govt - it has absolutely nothing to do with 'Westerners'. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Michael1 wrote:
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I thought it was censorship that was promoting the one-dimensional views being expressed by Chinese citizens over events in Tibet. But it seems Han chauvinism knows no national boundaries. Are any Han Chinese reflecting on why Tibetans are so angry and whether their actions may be justified? -------------------------- And the one-dimensional view is entirely in the eye of the West who cannot seem to understand that the Chinese government has been trying to raise the standard of living of the Western Region, including Tibet. The Western people should realize that by stirring up discontent and organizing terrorist acts, they will harm the Tibetan people the most. But it is obvious that the Westerners don't really care what happened to the Tibetans. If more Tibetans got killed then it pleases the Westerners more because then they can demonize the Chinese more. The number of dead Tibetans are no more than numbers to the Westerners, and the bigger the number the better because the bigger the number of Tibetans killed, the more propaganda value they can get out of it. And the reason why the Tibetans committed the terrorist acts is because they were instigated by the Westerners. report abuse
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
Michael1 wrote:
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I thought it was censorship that was promoting the one-dimensional views being expressed by Chinese citizens over events in Tibet. But it seems Han chauvinism knows no national boundaries. Are any Han Chinese reflecting on why Tibetans are so angry and whether their actions may be justified? ------------------------------- Predictably here comes all the condemnation of Han Chinese being chauvinists again. As predictable as bad smell following skunks. The Tibetans are treated better than the Han Chinese by the government. The Tibetan incomes are higher than the Indians on the average. The recently finished railroad is bringing in millions of tourists to boost the incomes of the Tibetans even more. All the terrorist acts are instigated by the West to destablilize China. And this is the view from the US not Beijing. In the end, all the unrest will hurt the Tibetans themselves who need the tourists to keep their incomes high. report abuse
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One Sided Western Garbage
written by Western Educated Chinese , March 18, 2008
Let me give you the credentials of this author. He is one of many petdogs (poodles) of the west, amongst them Anson Chan, Emily Lau, Martin Lee etc, who are given so much exposures in CNN, BBC & all these reactionary neo-con media. He wrote consistently in right-wing US papers like Jamestown Foundation stoking the all too familiar "China threats" of the CIA & Pentagon. Who knows he may even be on the pay roll of such evil organisations! Hence, don't judge a person by his Mongologue face, his heart & mind can be as white, if not more so, than a typical Anglo-Saxon beast. These people are truly hated by most Chinese worldwide for all they realise.
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No need to waste our time entertaining these self-consumed western media drunk on their own propaganda. CNN. BBC fed us all their garbage for the last few days with only one single-minded agenda~to smear China & abbet the rioters so as to provoke more violent responses from China thus branding it another "Tiananmen Incident". It is mind boggling to realise how these media can stoop so low as to call the typical street riotings "uprisings" while street hooligans/thugs "freedom fighters"! We thus applause the Chinese govt's firm hand not to allow these s**t stirrers to enter Tibet & to blank their broadcasts in China! All Chinese should now boycott these media & not afford them any assistances, helps & conveniences while in China. The west makes it as though the Olympic is such a big deal in the Chinese psyche. We say categorically: bring on your boycott please & see how many nations will response. Those nations which jump onto the bangwagon will rightly facilitate us to catalogue them as unfriendly & hence formulate our responses accordingly. Don't blame us for our retaliations later though. I guess the most there will only be 6 nations which we consistently classed as our "axis of evil" rogue states~US, UK, Israel, Japan, Australia, Canada. Come London 2012, guess how many nations will respond if we call for a tit-for-tat boycott? There will most probably be more than 50 nations across the world (many Arabs, Africans, Asians, Latin Americans have grievances with UK directly or indirectly due to its closed association with US)who wouldn't wait for such once in a lifetime opportunity! May be by then there will be no more Olympic in the real sense as China & Russia will most likely start to organise our own alternative Olympic devoid of the evil west in accordance to our true spirit of "one world 2 systems". We call upon the Chinese security forces to shoot the hell out of these rioters like dogs, never mind about the west, for whatever what we do, it is all evil in their preordinated fixed set of minds as they are simply out to get us. We should return their favour by having utter contempt & hatred for the west. report abuse
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written by michael1 , March 18, 2008
I thought it was censorship that was promoting the one-dimensional views being expressed by Chinese citizens over events in Tibet. But it seems Han chauvinism knows no national boundaries. Are any Han Chinese reflecting on why Tibetans are so angry and whether their actions may be justified?
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written by Liang1a , March 18, 2008
China should not have placed so much of its prestige on the Olympics. It is after all just a game no matter how prestigious it is. China must put down the riots which are nothing more than terrorist acts since it is concerted and killed innocent people. China should not try to soft pedal this but must use all necessary force to exterminate the terrorists immediately. It is one thing to promote democracy. It is quite another to tolerate terrorists who want to aplit China. I've always called for the implementation of democracy in China. But when terrorists are out to disrupt the orderly Chinese society and split apart the Chinese nation then the government must crush them completely without restraint.
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Furthermore, Tibet is no longer a topic of interest today. Few but the most anti-Chinese care about Tibet anymore. The vast majority of the international community want to participate in the Olympics as much as the Chinese want to host it. So the Chinese government doesn't need to fear that a large number of nations will boycott the Beijing Olympics. And it should be expected that anti-Chinese dogs will try to disrupt the Beijing Olympics. So the Chinese government should not even try to have a "spotless" Olympics since the defense of the motherland is much more important. In the end, all the minority peoples of China must be treated with equality and justice. But no attempt to aplit the Chinese nation can be tolerated. report abuse
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President Hu Jintao and his “Tibet Faction” have turned out to be the biggest losers in the wake of the most horrendous disturbances in Tibet and adjacent provinces since the 1959 Tibet Insurrection.
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I thought it was censorship that was promoting the one-dimensional views being expressed by Chinese citizens over events in Tibet. But it seems Han chauvinism knows no national boundaries. Are any Han Chinese reflecting on why Tibetans are so angry and whether their actions may be justified?
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have the Americans consider about why the Islams are so angry and whether their action may be
justified??
No. because it is terrorism. and no violence will be tolerated in conflict of national interest.
Tibet has been China's terretory since Tang Dynasty. There are no national boundaries between Tibet
and China. Independence is an irrelevent issues between Tibet and mainland China as it is one
whole nation. Including Taiwan.Please, what will you feel if califonia state wants to claim Independence
and seperate itself from the US??